Experts Agree: The MEDEVAC Issue Is a Non-Issue

U.S. Air Force Capt. Michael Madsen, Provincial Reconstruction Team Zabul doctor, dons a holiday hat and prepares to return to a unit morale event after transfering an Afghan National Police member to a medical evacuation helicopter at Forward Operating Base Smart, Afghanistan, Dec. 25, 2011. PRT Zabul’s medical team assists the Zabul Provincial Hospital in patient treatment to prevent to loss of life, limb, or eyesight. Photo by 1st Lt. Belena Marquez.

Troops on the ground, Regional Command (South), ISAF, CENTCOM, and the Department of the Army. What do they have in common? They agree that the efforts by those to stigmatize the red crosses on MEDEVAC choppers is a non-issue.

In a recent letter to Senator Grassley posted on Michael Yon’s website, Secretary of the Army John McHugh confirmed what I’ve been educating readers on all along – that “Army MEDEVAC aircraft are manned with specially trained crewmembers and are uniquely equipped with medical equipment to provide critical in-flight medical care,” something that Pedros, Air Force and Marine CASEVAC choppers are NOT “uniquely equipped” to provide.

This issue started as an effort to arm MEDEVAC choppers, but the obvious realization that adding guns, ammo, and shooters to these assets would cause medical capabilities to suffer the conversation turned to a ridiculous argument that red crosses are looked at as some sort of homage to the Crusades or that they violated Geneva Conventions. Not sure which is more laughable.

U.S. Army Spc. Carl Jenson from Sierra Vista, Ariz., assigned to 3rd Platoon, The “All American” Dustoff, 82nd Airborne Combat Aviation Brigade, Fort Bragg, N.C., writes down the patient’s information while flying over Wardak province, Afghanistan, Dec. 19, 2011.

The reason that the Air Force, Marines, British, and Army Special Operations Forces do not use the Red Crosses is because they do not have a dedicated MEDEVAC mission. This seems to constantly get lost in the translation as various people easily influenced by the gentle breeze of shifting winds of conspiracy contact Congress demanding answers to a riddle that’s already been solved. Or better yet, a riddle that didn’t need to be solved.

As Secretary McHugh rightly noted in his response to Senator Grassley, the truth is that these unarmed MEDEVAC choppers consistently “evacuate urgent point of injury patients to the appropriate level of care within one hour of receiving the MEDEVAC mission.” These choppers do not, as some would try to indicate, sit on the ground waiting for armed escort. As a matter of fact – and something specifically pointed out by ISAF in response to this issue a few months ago – even the mission that precipitated this irresponsible call to action didn’t wait on any armed escort.

U.S. Army Spc. Carl Jenson from Sierra Vista, Ariz., assigned to 3rd Platoon, The “All American” Dustoff, 82nd Airborne Combat Aviation Brigade, Fort Bragg, N.C., writes down the patient’s information while flying over Wardak province, Afghanistan, Dec. 19, 2011.

Another misleading argument used by the crusaders trying to remove the red crosses from our MEDEVAC choppers is that such symbols are targeted by the enemy. Well, guess what. If the enemy targets our MEDEVAC choppers they are decimated by the accompanying Apache attack helicopter with its 30-millimeter chain gun, Hydra 70 rockets and hellfire missiles. Guess what else. These Apaches have 360 degree visibility of the surrounding area and a longer range than anything a Blackhawk MEDEVAC bird would be armed with. Any added defensive or offensive systems would only have a 90 degree effectiveness on each side and could hinder evacuations or cause additional injuries if the evacuation happens to be in the line of fire of enemy troops.

In reality, the vast majority of LZs for MEDEVAC birds are cleared by the time the chopper arrives. So the argument that every single MEDEVAC bird is somehow an enemy target is a farce. No one will argue that the enemy will target support assets, including medical personnel and equipment. But, the irresponsible suggestion that our MEDEVACs are under constant fire is simply inaccurate at best and an outright misrepresentation at worst. Even in the situation that precipitated this campaign to arm MEDEVACs and remove crosses, the LZ was completely secured with ABSOLUTELY ZERO direct fire enemy engagements.

No one is “passing the MEDEVAC” buck on this issue. The fact is that everyone except a select few individuals who are losing relevance are keeping this issue alive. It’s been all the way to the White House and throughout the DOD and combat theater and no changes are being made. That should say something quite profound to those that continue to fight this issue.

I want to do everything possible to keep my fellow brothers and sisters alive that I serve with here in Afghanistan. This is an issue on which few people involved disagree with me. I’ve got another meeting with a different MEDEVAC unit on Saturday, but I suspect to get the same response to this issue as I have with the two other teams I’ve contacted about it: “What are you talking about? The way we do things is just fine. Adding weapons would take up needed space and prevent mass casualty evacuation that we’re equipped for.”

U.S. Army Capt. Adam Ellington from Cedar City, Utah, assigned to 3rd Platoon, The “All American” Dustoff, 82nd Airborne Combat Aviation Brigade, Fort Bragg, N.C., finishes shutting down his UH-60M Black Hawk helicopter, Forward Operating Base Shank, Logar province, Afghanistan, Dec. 19, 2011.

And with that, I’m done. I’ve said all there is to say.

29 Comments on “Experts Agree: The MEDEVAC Issue Is a Non-Issue

  1. Unless you have been told to not launch until you have conducted linkup with escort aircraft you have no real experience with the issue. I have over a 1000 flight hours flying MEDEVAC in Combat. A wife is without her husband because of politics and the MEDICAL SERVICE CORP’s desire to maintain MEDEVAC traditions. Even with armed escort aircraft I was shot at, and the armed aircraft could not return fire because the location of the enemy could nto be determined. All while myself or crewmembers on MEDEVAC aircraft could identify the location of the enemy, and if we had weapons could have eliminated the threat. Yes I live with the experiences every day.

    • “Unless you have been told to not launch until you have conducted linkup with escort aircraft you have no real experience with the issue.”

      This is a strawman argument. I can guarantee you that you don’t say that to the people that agree with your position, most of whom fit this description and most of whom have FAR less military experience than I do. You are flat out wrong about a wife being without a husband because of politics. But, thank you for noting that even having an armed bird doesn’t fix the problem.

      This post is my personal opinion and not representative of the Army, the Department of Defense, The United States Government, the 82nd Airborne Division, the 3rd Infantry Division, III Corps, the 101st Airborne Division, the 504th Battlefield Surveillance Brigade, the 511th MI Company, the School of the Americas, ISAF, RC(S), RC(E), RC(N), RC(W), CENTCOM, TRADOC, FORSCOM, Recruiting Command, The United States Marine Corps, the United States Air Force, the United States Navy, The United States Coast Guard, The Boy Scouts of America, the Department of Education, or any other unit, department, office, Section, squad, platoon, company battalion, brigade, division, Corps, any branch of service, rank, MOS, or any other segment of official military or government, real or imagined.

    • Give up now Medevac pilot! CJ sat in a helicopter once so in his mind that makes him more of an expert than you. In response to CJ’s earlier post about door gunners taking up space. He admits that weight isn’t the problem it’s the space requirement. However, You don’t need door gunners, on the Blackhawk they can mount pylons outside the aircraft with weapons controlled by the pilots. Just like on the UH-1C.

  2. Unedited direct quotes from a letter from the Joint Chiefs of Staff to a member of Congress (emphasis added by me):

    “The Combined Joint Task Force (CJTF) 82 decision matrix on MEDEVAC asset
    allocation is similar to that of the previous battlespace owner, CJTF-10, in that a dividing
    line exists whereby those missions falling to the west would be assigned to the
    MEDEVAC assets based at Forward Operating Base (FOB) Pasab
    and those falling to
    the east would be assigned to the assets based at Kandahar Air Field (KAF).

    Based on run-up times and distance from the appropriate MTF’s, CJTF-82 determined
    that the MEDEVAC is the only appropriate asset for any Category A casualty found
    west of the dividing line; Pedro, from KAF, will only be used for the much less urgent
    Category B (if PEDRO is first up) or Category C (if Thunder is first up). Those
    casualties to the east of the dividing line will be assigned to MEDEVAC or PEDRO
    based on which unit is first up and which is second up; the designation of which is
    alternated each Monday at 1300.

    In most cases, an appropriate asset is already in the air and can quickly divert to cover the
    mission; however, if no flying asset is readily available due to mission necessity, an
    ESCORT will need to be requested from KAF. The latter is the least preferred as it will
    take more time to scramble the crew and “run up” the aircraft.

    The incident in question involved a casualty at approximately 0450 on 18 September
    2011 in the TF Spartan AOR in RC-South. Since the near entirety of TF Spartan’s
    battlespace is west of the dividing line, the appropriate aircraft for any CAT A casualty in
    this AO is a MEDEVAC. In this case, because the western LZ was considered high-risk
    the MEDEVAC required an armed escort. Because none of the airborne assets were
    able to leave their mission to provide coverage an AH-64 was requested from KAF.
    crew was scrambled and the aircraft was “run up” and launched toward Pasab; the
    MEDEVAC from Pasab then joined the ESCORT in the air as it approached the

    a. 04:50 – 9-line request placed by unit in field
    b. 04:52 – Time of PECC authorization (and search to locate ESCORT)
    c. 05:24 – Wheels up for MEDEVAC from Pasab
    d. 05:37 – Wheels down for MEDEVAC at casualty
    e. 05:39 – Wheels up with casualty
    f. 05:49 – Wheels down at MTF (KAF)

    The extenuating circumstances in this case were the need for an ESCORT and the
    atypical situation where an ESCORT capable of diverting from its current mission could
    not be found. This circumstance delayed the MEDEVAC from departing Pasab and
    required an AH-64 ESCORT to be alerted from KAF.
    While it would appear that 32
    minutes from the PECC notification to wheels up for the MEDEVAC is excessive, the
    delay was due to the need to confirm that none of the ESCORTs in the air were able to
    leave their present mission and then to notify an AH-64 crew to move out to their
    aircraft, run it up, and fly to meet the MEDEVAC.”

    end of quotes———–

    The reason why the Pasab based MEDEVAC could not launch was the escort it usually relies upon – an unmarked, armed UH-60 (not an Apache with chain guns and rockets) that sits on the pad next to it at Pasab was unable to accompany the MEDEVAC the 2km to the LZ where SPC Clark lay waiting for evacuation. The PECC was forced to solicit an available chase copter. and finding none to be available resorted to assigning one from KAF.

    The MEDEVAC sat on the ground at Pasab for 32 minutes, then had a 13 minute flight to wheels down at the LZ (to cover 2km!) which suggests a delay in meeting up with the Apache. Followed by a load up of SPC Clark and a 10 minute flight to KAF.

    As noted above in the JCS letter, Pedro CASEVAC is authorized east of the dividing line to handle Class A casualties. So, the Blackhawk flown by Pedro units can sustain life for Class A casualties by the admission of the JCS themselves.

    If arming the MEDEVACs is beyond the preference of some, then assign armed escort helicopters exclusively to the MEDEVAC units on a 1 to 1 ratio.

    BTW – some MEDEVAC pilots elsewhere state that a mass casualty situation can be called with as few as 3 wounded and then two MEDEVAC helicopters are dispatched. So, there is always some point where even if the helicopter has the physical space to carry more casualties, the medical crew can’t attend to that many at one time.

  3. Why don’t they paint the whole helicopter white and put a red cross on it? Like the Navy Hospital ships. That way it makes it really obvious it is a medical helicopter.

    Barring that, they could put pylons on the Blackhawk. on the pylons the could mount miniguns and rockets which like on the Apache would be operated by the pilots in the front. I agree that mounting door guns would take up needed space in the medical bay and necessitate extra personnel to operate. Pylon mounted weapons would be out of the way and operated by pilots who are on on the aircraft anyway.

  4. This conversation is so damn stupid! The red cross on our choppers doesn’t serve any purpose. Our enemy targets everything! Just once, a dying soldier is waiting to be medevaced out while a medevac is waiting for an armed escort is one time too many and it’s already happened. You guys sound like some bombastic tenured professor pounding his liberal mantra, defending the indefensible. How many times has a medevac needed to bring out 8 critically injured troops and on those occassions how many times did we not have enough medevacs to get them, if each medevac could only pickup a maximum of 4? Is there a shortage of medevacs? Arm them, and clear them to go out hot for all our critically injured soldiers and those of our allies. The Air Force has done it and it’s a non issue for them. You make the Army look like dumb asses to keep supporting the unsupportable position of that’s the way we have always done it, so that’s they we will keep doing it. The Air Force can see the forest from the trees, what the hell is wrong with our Army that can’t admit their wrong and implement the best option to do their job and save our best and bravest! This is an argument of someone taking a position and defending it to their death, whether they are wrong or right. That’s okay in a college philosophy class but it doesn’t have any place here, where are soldiers are dying because of the Army’s current position on this matter.

    • Alexander, have you paid attention? The Air Force has done anything because THE AIR FORCE DOESN’T HAVE MEDEVACS!

    • Alexander here’s how it works…

      USAF has CSAR aka Combat Search and Rescue responsibility NOT MEDEVAC. MEDEVAC’s are an entirely different class of Helicopter and I believe the Army has primary call on this. The USAF relies on the Army for MEDEVAC purposes as we rely on the USAF for CSAR if needed.

      The Red Cross issue is a NON Issue as has been stated by those who know and not those of us who wish we knew. Furthermore your statement to arm the MEDEVAC helo’s has been debunked. Scroll up and read the earlier discussion on this particular matter.

  5. Howdy Shipmate Scott B !!!

    You overlooked Option #3. Option #3 is known by the Blue Team, that occasionally wears woodland or cookie dough shades, as P.A.I.N.T.

    A few coats of paint requires no added weapons (your option #1 is therefore irrelevent).

    A few coats of paint requires no absolute requirement to always have armed escorts (your option #2 is therefore irrelevent).

    I will listen UPWARD to a ponderous overweight Army chain of command when it starts listen DOWNWARD to the bloody tip o the spear. Letters every E-1 in Blue Team knows well “P-A-I-N-T”

    • Frisker even painting over the cross would not remove the requirement to have an armed escort. Short of actually arming the MEDEVAC, which has been proven to be a nonviable alternative, these helo’s will require an Armed Escort and guess what….the bad guys are not stupid. They will begin noticing how certain helo’s always have an Apache escort and thus they become a major target and due to no Red Cross being on the chopper they can shoot at it freely with no outcry over a MEDEVAC with wounded personnel on board being shot at. Instead they can point to us being the bad guys for removing the Red Cross which is not something I would want to tell a soldier’s family when that inevitable knock on the door came.

      “Sir/Ma’am I regret to inform you that due to even greater ignorance and stupidity on the part of our government your son/daughter was killed when the MEDEVAC helicopter he/she was in was shot down because we painted over the Red Cross and thus made it a lumbering target for the bad guys. I am truly sorry for your loss Sir/Ma’am.”

    • I’d pay good money to watch you say, “Howdy Shipmate Chris Kyle! Aint this shit FUNNY!” when he hops onstage to interrupt your MEDEVAC standup comedy routine. Pretty sure he would find it face-punching funny as opposed to thigh-slapping funny.

      Could you be more of a cartoon?

  6. I’m wondering what skin a guy whose sign-on ends in “FTN” has in the game? Why do you care so much?

    1) Armament on medevacs takes up space better used for medical equipment.
    2) They can, and often do, have armed escorts that have BETTER armament than could ever be put on a medevac. Longer range, better fields of fire, etc…

    You know what would make this issue go away? If you listened to the entire Chain of Command, including those with more knowledge and responsibility on this issue than you, or I, have and just LET.IT.GO.

    It’s not changing, and you trying over and over to label it a “fetish” item isn’t going to convince anyone that it need to.

  7. You mention that the MEDEVACs do not have to wait for armed escort and say that there is no need to arm the MEDEVACs. Yet a paragraph later you say that if they get shot at the armed escorts will decimate the enemy. Which is it? Either the MEDEVACs have weapons and can defend themselves or you are sending an unarmed asset into an area where they have no means of self defense and must rely on other, limited assets for protection.

    Arming the MEDEVACs allows them to most definitely go in without need of an armed escort which would save time. It also releases the Apaches to fulfill missions elsewhere.

    During my time in Afghanistan we performed a number of air assault missions. We did not have Apaches with us most of the time but our Chinooks were armed. Why is that? Oh… that’s right…. so they can defend themselves and accomplish the mission even without additional armed escorts. We also had requests for MEDEVAC not fulfilled because armed escorts were unavailable to bring the MEDEVAC in. So we ended up CASEVAC some 20km through the night along a route known for lots of IEDs. Brilliant.

    Big Army has a problem. They want to play by rules no one else is playing by. So take the guns off all the UH-60s and CH-47s. They don’t need them. They are primarily dedicated to just flying in to and dropping troops and supplies off. They don’t need the self defense capabilities and can rely on the armed escorts to do the fighting. That is essentially Big Army’s position on the matter.

    Or you could just put the machine guns on the birds and they can go in unescorted and able to defend themselves.

    F’ it. It’s not like it’s Higher is the one sitting on the ground waiting for Dust Off.

    • Nevyan, you’re mixing two separate issues. I said there is no need to arm MEDEVACs, meaning the actual MEDEVAC chopper. The armed escort is WHY there is no need to arm a medical chopper. You seem to lack the common sense necessary to fully engage in this conversation. There is a reason that UH-60s and CH-47s are armed. They perform COMBAT missions! As someone who “performed a number of air assault missions” I truly hope you would understand that.

    • Not having to wait for an armed escort does not indicate the need to arm the MEDEVAC choppers Nevyan. The point is that the case being used for this incessant cry to arm MEDEVACs was because the MEDEVAC choppers couldn’t leave KAF sooner because they had to wait for their armed escort. This wasn’t the case. Oft times the Apaches will meet the MEDEVAC in flight because Apaches and MEDEVACs are not always at the same location. I somehow doubt your MEDEVAC request was denied due to lack of an armed escort. Most likely it was due to location and terrain. I’ve known of that happening due to that very reason thus forcing the personnel involved to shift location to a better area where the MEDEVAC could take place.

      Once again please read my prior response to you Nevyan and tell me if you really think arming a MEDEVAC is the smart thing.

  8. I agree BUT bullets flying and people dying is not the end of the story. This is a stressful world and the military have the most stressful jobs on the planet, at least according to our recent research. We’ve conducted a research project on the Most Stressful and Least Stressful Jobs of 2012 and two of the top ten positions for Most Stressful Jobs are with the military. Specifically, both Soldiers and Generals are mentioned in the study. Here’s the study:

  9. Howdy shipmate!!! How about this WIN-WIN for one and all on that there big green team?

    Instead of adding weapons, how about just painting over the red crosses to cover those cases where you yourself admit – QUOTING BACK TO YOU – “the [small minority] of LZs for MEDEVAC birds are [not] cleared by the time the chopper arrives. ”

    Compare your phrase as written “the vast majority of LZs for MEDEVAC birds are cleared by the time the chopper arrives” to what that phrase also means “the [minority] of LZs for MEDEVAC birds are [not] cleared by the time the chopper arrives.”

    Some enlisted will see-through that you admitted not ALL LZs are cleared. Some enlisted will chuckle that you grudgingly admit the enemy will target the red cross. What purpose does the red-cross serve then? Better targeting? Some fetish for the good ole days in WWII Europe rather than the harsh reality of WWII Pacific Island hoping?

    Paint over the red-cross. Problem solved until peacetime (coming soon to a national command authority near you ;-). Next conflict adapt a wait and see for a few weeks then decide whether or not to paint over again.

    • It’s called combat. Bullets are going to fly and people are going to die. Whether there is a cross on it or not, if the enemy can shoot at a helicopter on the ground, it will. The Taliban isn’t just gonna say, “oh, there’s no cross on that chopper so we might as well leave.” Again, it’s a non-issue.

      • But the question is this:

        Why would you NOT arm them so they can shoot back? If my medic in a Rifle Platoon/Company, who is primarily there to save lives, can be armed why not arm the choppers?

        People keep saying its not a big deal. Yet we are in a war where EVERYONE is getting shot at but only SOME of them have the means to shoot back. That is retarded.

        We are not effectively using our limited resources by keeping the birds unarmed. We are requiring 2 armed escorts for every 1 MEDEVAC when we could just arm 1 MEDEVAC and the armed escorts can do any number of other missions which are just as important.

        I say again: Not arming EVERY asset in theater is the wrong answer.

        • Nevyan, I answered that question. Please reread my post.

        • Look at it this way Nevyan…

          Say a MEDEVAC WITHOUT weapons can carry 8 wounded. That’s 8 people on their way to the best Medical treatment available in theatre. OK so now you arm that same MEDEVAC with a pair of M240B’s or Mini-Guns and the requisite ammunition to use them and the personnel to man them. Guess what Nevyan this drops the capacity for that MEDEVAC from 8 wounded to 4. That means the other 4 are still waiting to be taken to the facility for treatment. Not only that but you limit the medical capability by limiting the amount of gear the personnel can carry and use to treat, enroute, those same wounded as well as doubling the number of MEDEVAC helo’s needed thus doubling the available targets the bad guys can shoot at.

          Make sense yet Nevyan?

        • I will clear this mud up. 1st, MEDEVAC aircraft can only carry at most 6 patients. 2nd the single medic can only really car for 2 at most during flight. The Geneva Conventions DOES NOT protect MEDEVAC aircraft from being shot at, read Article 39 pf the second convention. “Do you think we inform the enemy of when we will fly?” The weight is not that much, about 50 lbs for guns and ammo. It is about politics and maintaining the traditions of MEDEVAC.

        • It’s not about weight. It’s about personnel and space for weapons/ammo. Your comment does NOT clear up any mud, but evades the reality.

          This post is my personal opinion and not representative of the Army, the Department of Defense, The United States Government, the 82nd Airborne Division, the 3rd Infantry Division, III Corps, the 101st Airborne Division, the 504th Battlefield Surveillance Brigade, the 511th MI Company, the School of the Americas, ISAF, RC(S), RC(E), RC(N), RC(W), CENTCOM, TRADOC, FORSCOM, Recruiting Command, The United States Marine Corps, the United States Air Force, the United States Navy, The United States Coast Guard, The Boy Scouts of America, the Department of Education, or any other unit, department, office, Section, squad, platoon, company battalion, brigade, division, Corps, any branch of service, rank, MOS, or any other segment of official military or government, real or imagined.

      • Hate it when combat happens. Who woulda thunk combat happens, occasionally even 12000 feet above sea-level? Much better on a beach than at altitude. What did that super Marine Gomer Pyle say??? Something like Golly Gee Shipmate.

        Anyway from what your article stated and from what your reply to my comment stated, you are rapidly approaching the point where you come out and say words to the effect that the MEDEVAC Red Cross “targeting aid” serves no useful purpose to the Good Guys.

        You are close to admitting that the Red Cross “targeting aid” might (notice the use of the word “might”) serve an occasionally (notice the use of the word “occasionally”) useful purpose to the enemy. You will recall that you basically admitted that occasionally a minority of LZs for MEDEVAC birds are NOT cleared by the time the chopper arrives.

        Obviously that Red Cross fetish symbol is not terribly useful to us (good guys). Might be useful to the enemy (you know the bad guys).

        That being said, seems like the quickest way to put the issue in the rack is to paint over the MEDEVAC Red Cross “targeting aids”.

        Then quicker than announcing “Liberty Call” over a gator’s 1MC circuit creates an absence of ground pounders, y’all with a fetish for the Red Cross might notice silence on the issue forever after or at least until y’all are back in Europe (re)fighting the German Army instead of the Japanese, Norks, or Chicoms where the Corps did the heavy lifting.

        • To use your reasoning removing the Red Cross would thus mean that the helo is less likely to come under fire when in fact that wouldn’t be the case. CH-47’s are flying boxcars and yet the enemy knows these boxcars carry combat troops thus they come under fire and on occasion are shot down. The fact of the matter is that with or without a Red Cross the helo’s are prime targets due to the fact that they are large and noisy. The cross does not make them anymore of a target than without it only matters on the “bravery” of the bad guy as to whether or not he/she wishes to attract the attention of an angry Apache driver and his gunner.

          MSG Grisham makes the statement that not all LZ’s are cleared of enemy for no other reason than it’s the truth. Stating that EVERY LZ is cleared and safe for ANY Helo to land would be a lie since even one bad guy with an AK47 popping off rounds would indicate that the LZ is not cleared.

        • The fact that you need to stoop to diminutives renders any argument you make no more influential or worth paying attention to than a 6 year old stomping their foot on the playground. And it pretty much tells us where your home “stomping ground” is and the caliber of your fellow cronies. Please return to it. The grownups are talking.

  10. as someone that has followed this issue since the beginning I find your article to be the best written explanation as to why things are the way they are. Thank you for that and “well done”

    Godspeed to you and all of our troops

  11. Pingback: Instapundit » Blog Archive » MICHAEL YON: Passing the Medevac Buck. UPDATE: Response: Experts Agree, The Medevac Issue Is A…

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